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 r/w/b control list

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workshoptelescope

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PostSubject: r/w/b control list   Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:27 pm

boosted this from a forum discussion on stg. like the list. has alot of potential, me thinks.
you know, discuss, etc...

// Lands
4 [M10] Dragonskull Summit
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
5 [ZEN] Swamp
3 [ZEN] Mountain
2 [ALA] Jungle Shrine
5 [ZEN] Plains

// Spells
3 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [M10] Lightning Bolt
2 [ZEN] Sorin Markov
4 [ALA] Blightning
4 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
4 [M10] Sign in Blood
3 [ARB] Terminate
2 [CFX] Obelisk of Alara
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [M10] Pyroclasm
2 [CFX] Armillary Sphere

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [M10] Celestial Purge
SB: 3 [ARB] Identity Crisis
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [ARB] Bituminous Blast


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chops

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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:10 am

im not so sure andrew...i really think that the meta demands that you have some sort of creature presence...
that said...the deck seems like it should have enough bits of removal to deal with all the monsters floating around...
the planeswalkers are very powerful and the mass removal should get you to stabilized...
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workshoptelescope

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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:37 am

all things considered, dan, i would agree on it being a little light on creatures, but as i noted, it certainly could be easily adaptable without losing the operative power of the deck (such as easily dressed up with TheBitch and/or bloodwitch or just about anything good). i tested eric's white/black bond deck on monday night with buck and i realized how much of a house sorin markov can be, especially when working cooperatively with other walkers. I also can't think of anything more exciting for a control play right now than bit blasting into day of judgment, walkers, or... you know, blightning (like that's never been done before).
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:42 am

you might want to think about a rupture spire just to give you full access to your obelisk...
i guess i would rather see walls instead of doj...and maybe earthquake given that your bit blast is in the side...
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:00 am

yeah, i've been playing quake in r/u/w (a deck i think i'm going to keep playing for a while. this list is just something intriguing i found and actually almost audibled to something like before states) and i really like it.
having access to day of judgment for control. its just something grixis doesn't have right now.
having the black for spot removal and draw/discard seems really helpful. i don't know. while i'm personally not sold on obelisk in the first place, i think you're right about the spires if they stay in.
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:23 pm

Well i guess i better be the one to say this...You are going to run Sorin with only 5 sources of black mana and only the option to search for 1 of those 5? I know you are desperate to hit double white by turn four, but the odds of not having the right mana for sorin are exponentially higher when you don't have the chance to run at least 2-3 swamps next to the other black sources you have. The problem with this deck as it stands now is the mana. I made a deck similar to this when i played jund planeswalkers and it just isn't as efficient as shard mana can be. Consider White as a splash color, i'd take out the shrines and add in swamp/plains and you might be a little happier with the base. Also, infest may be worth considering since we have so many people trying to milk brave the elements.
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Th3 Ra1nman

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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:35 pm

no bit blast?
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workshoptelescope

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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:37 pm

that is a bit of a popular phenomenon now, isn't it.
i hadn't realized how many roch magic guys were into small white men (too easy?).
i think you're probably right about the black mana issue. i guess i hadn't payed that much attention to the particularities of the mana base (assumed the armillary spheres would be helpful enough, i guess).


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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:38 pm

clint, bit blast in in the sideboard but i think it could go maindeck (but that might be trying to jam bit blast into everything that isn't jund).
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:46 pm

the only thing it cant kill in stanerd is baneslayer but that is what treminate is for
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chops

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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:25 pm

jake...you're forgetting the dragonskull sumits...which makes nine black sorces...
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:46 pm

yeah, clint, i definitely think blast has a place in the maindeck.
living the dream for me seems like having access to a flash wrath.

and even with the d.skulls, jake's concern about black is probably well founded.
the other three color control deck(u/w/r) has a few problems getting to where it wants to be on colors from time to time (or it might just feel that way after playing so many damnable spread 'em decks, a truly and deeply scarring experience). but i do feel like a maindeck inclusion of bitumulonimbus blast makes the double white requirements more accessible. i can't say i have actually tested the deck yet. my posting came out of a conversation with buckymac on monday night and i told him i would send him the list. i then realized i should probably just hand the list over to the collective for critique (that's what we're all here for, right?).
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:57 pm

No dan i'm not, its 5 black sources. he can at most collect 1 black source off of 1 of four marsh flats and the same is true for white except he has 7 ways to search up that 1 source. But the point i'm making is that if you need to pull out either the one swamp or one plains or both early on, what good is marsh flats later? Its essentially a dead draw. Why in a control deck would he not want to be able to efficiently use each of his fetch lands? He needs more basics to make this work.

Edit: Nevermind, i was thinking the numbers in parenthesis were the land counts. Maybe they are for the foil lands he has though?
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:00 pm

jake, the problem was the way in which it was listed.
not your fault, mine. didn't really proofread the way i had seen it listed. sorry. there are five swamps in the deck. i fixed it now.
i fail so hard sometimes.
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PostSubject: obelisk?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:03 pm

does anyone have any experience with the obelisk?
i've never really played with it, usually considering it but cutting it from whatever list i cook up.
i feel like its worth just replacing with something like a control creature...
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:08 pm

Obelisk as any more than a one of will probably be frustrating sadly. I am happy to have it on the board when i do, but i could definately see this ending up being a card you never really need to play two at once. You have the option here of playing a very small blue splash for any of the sphinxes from Shards block (I could see something like steel wind or enigma sphinx actually being kind of fun, ala "Cascade off enigma sphinx, sorin, your life is ten, go.") I think Bit Blast could be main deck with the number of four mana Planeswalkers you run. It might even be a reason to consider lowering the numbers on those planeswalkers too. Just a thought.

*Edit* After looking at the list again i think it would be a very easy straight swap for Bit Blast and PtE. If you are worried about Blasting into Armillary Sphere, you could always just play angelsong in that spot, which would at least make a late game bit blast into a virtual intimidation bolt.
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:35 pm

horray intimidation bolt!
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PostSubject: mana...   Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:27 pm

what about making those jungel shrines into arance santums and change around the m10 dules and basic count...
that might help out making three black for sorin and also help make double white turn 4 for doj...
by the way jake is right about the oblesk...you only ever want one because 2 is too much...
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:45 pm

yeah, i think i'm prone to agree with you two.
i knew i had to ask someone else after looking at the list.
i'm still kinda iffy about the card but i could see the white and black abilities being especially relevant in a deck such as this.
i think you might be right about the mana, dan as the main spot removal cards are actually coming from black and it might feel a bit janky to try to cast black removal with such a small number of sources for it.
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:42 am

I respect that you're trying control in the most unfriendly setting for control that I've experienced since regularly attending FNM during 9th edition, but I'm curious what your ideal turn progressions are.

From what I'm observing, your kill conditions are:

Ajani Vengeant, Sorin Markov and Obelisk of Alara (I'm not counting spot burn). These feel too slow. They can kill, but they take too long to finish the job.

You need to drop a bomb on your opponent's face late game that will straight kill them. In my opinion, your best two options are:

Bogardan Hellkite (my favorite candidate because of how well it would interact with Sorin's second ability)
Flameblast Dragon

I don't like Sign in Blood in control; it feels much more like an aggro card. You can't afford to lose two life especially considering you're running fetches. That's just a death wish. I see that you're running a bunch of lands, so you're probably running SiB to avoid mana clump, but I think you're better off without it. Red Deck Wins and WW would pray for control decks that run Sign in Blood, and playing Sign in Blood only to get Blightninged by your opponent next turn sounds like the saddest thing ever.

I'm not feeling Elspeth in your deck. She seems like she would be an expensive fog (you drop her turn four, make a soldier, and then your opponent kills her). I guess after a sweeper she would be good, but that's too situational to be worth your while. Are you done with Chandra Nalaar at this point? I mean....she's a Baneslayer killer, right?

My suggestion would be:

-4 Sign in Blood
-1 Obelisk of Alara
-2 Armillary Sphere (I hope at 26 lands you won't need these)
-2 Elspeth

+2 Bogardan Hellkite
+4 Intimidation Bolt (Hell Andrew...wasn't this your idea for dealing with Bloodbraid? It also effectively saves your walkers from attackers, which makes it better than Angelsong/Safe Passage. There's more than enough aggro in the meta to justify running a play set of these.)
+1 Lightning Bolt (Gotta run four...it's an unwritten rule.)
+1 Chandra Nalaar
+1 Martial Coup (I'm thinking turn six Sorin, your opponent goes to 10 and they focus their attack on him, turn seven Martial Coup, clear board get 5 dudes, turn eight Bogardan Hellkite, attack in with soldiers and win)

Let's take a look at your mana curve if you made those switches
1 drops: 8
2 drops: 4
3 drops: 8
4+ drops: 14

That's a pretty good curve IMO. This turns your deck into extreme anti-aggro (your worst matchup) , which would allow you to focus your sideboard on anti fog/control.
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PostSubject: Re: r/w/b control list   Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:04 pm

alex, thanks for the thorough response (sorry it took me this long to find it) as i think most of your evaluation is spot on.
right now, i've been bouncing between various three color control decks (grixis, r/w/u, etc...) as i'm really sort of trying them all out.
i've tried to document these shenanigans as much as possible. i might really like bogardan hellkite (still wish he killed baneslayer). i'm still accumulating and sorting through a bunch of testing/play data on all of this stuff. i think by the time worldwake comes out, i'll have this **** sorted out. just in time for the card that might make control good again.
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