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 Type 2 5CC....can it work??

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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:37 pm

Mainboard
Creatures
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Sphinx of Lost Truths

Artifacts
1x Obelisk of Alara

Planeswalkers
3x Jace Beleren
2x Ajani Vengeant

Spells
4x Cruel Ultimatum
4x Day of Judgment
4x Path to Exile
4x Esper Charm
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Mindbreak Trap
2x Negate
1x Haunting Echoes

Land
4x Islands
3x Mountains
2x Swamp
1x Plains

4x Arcane Sanctum
4x Crumbing Necropolis
3x Jungle Shrine
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Marsh Flats
1x Glacial Fortress

Sideboard
4x Blightning
3x Celestial Purge
3x Flashfreeze
2x Earthquake
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Negate


This is my build so far, let me know what you guys think...Thanks
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Ryman

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:54 am

I believe it can work, although I think that Luminarch Ascension would be a great fit especially with he planeswalkers, as they would be attacking them instead of you. It is a really good finisher. Also, you might want to look into Rupture Spire. As bad as it seems, it's actually pretty good, and if you're going 5 color you almost need it to make sure your mana is stable enough to reliably cast your spells. 4 Cruel Ult seems like too many to me also. Just some thoughts.
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Be_Nike

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:26 pm

I also believe 5CC can work(although technically the only green in your list is in Obelisk, which I'll get to in a minute), but it needs to be tailored to specifically beat the very fast aggro that is currently overrunning the meta. I don't think a true control deck with only a few finishers is going to cut it when the aggro decks are winning by turn 5 and can recover from a DoJ so well (Bloodbraid Elf and Ranger of Eos, as well as Bushwacker in those ridiculous R/W decks). You need to be able to stall the early game well enough with the lack of do all counterspells to get to the late game and your finishers and Cruels.

<Wall of Text>

First off, let's talk about your creatures. Baneslayer is obviously the finisher of choice and in my opinion should be at least a 3-of. Sphinx of Lost Truths is too expensive for what it does...and you have Cruels to refill your hand and do a whole heck of a lot more for 7 mana already. Sphinx of Jwar Isle has been really good in testing so far. Most of the aggro decks can't deal with the 5/5 flying body and they have no way to remove it b/c of the shroud. I think as a 2-of to supplement the Baneslayers would be a good amount. Also, think about taking some non-creature spells out to add in Wall of Denial. It's almost impossible to deal with and will stall the ground in the early game so you can get to your Sphinxes and BS Angels.

Ok, onto spells. I think that the Obelisk is just too slow again for all of the aggro that is running around. It doesn't come online until turn 7...which is when you should have the game already in control or you've probably lost. For Planeswalkers, Jace really shines in an environment with a lot of control. In this meta, he won't last more than a turn very often and that isn't very efficient for 3 mana at sorcery speed. Obviously, if you're cutting the Sphinx of Lost Truths and the Jaces, you need more card draw. The two choices here seem to be Ior Ruin Expedition and Courier's Capsule. You don't have much going on turn 2, so either of these are decent choices. I prefer the Expedition b/c it allows you to play your game and refill your hand when you need it(turn 4 or 5).

As Ryan already said, 4 Cruel Ultimatums is too much. 2 in your opening hand is an auto mull. 3 is probably the correct number--which leaves you with 3 or 4 BS Angels, a couple Sphinx of JI and Cruels for finishers(and Ajani if he's working for you), which sounds about right for a control deck right now. I don't like Path as a removal spell in control at the moment. You really don't want to ramp any current aggro deck into the higher parts of their curve. Sprouting Thrinax becomes a problem after you remove Path though, so in it's place (and possibly Lightning Bolt's place as well--it's good, just not that good in this kind of deck), I would recommend moving some of the Celestial Purges to main. They kill almost everything in the meta right now that you need to be killed. Also, think about Agony Warp, as it kills a creature and fogs another early game, again allowing you to get to your business spells before aggro kills you. Mindbreak Trap is slow as well for what it's doing, as is Haunting Echoes. I'd recommend 3 Essence Scatters in those spots, as it deals with the creatures that really mess with you--namely Ranger of Eos and Thrinax, as well as some of the bigger vamps). A 3-2 split on those and Negate is a decent counterspell suite.

Manabase. I'm not an expert on these, but I will agree with Ryan that you need 4 Rupture Spire. You don't have a lot going on turn 2 anyway, so you don't really lose tempo and it really helps out the fixing. Other than that, if you're playing the Expedition, more fetchlands would be good. I hope this helped a little bit:)

</Wall of Text>
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Traetus

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:06 pm

Nice post, that was very insightful. I think it was pretty helpful
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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:40 pm

I do like your thoughts on the sphinx of JI and taking a cruel out. Some two drops would definitely be a good addition to the deck. But as for rupture spire, especially if I'm going to be adding some two drops I don't think it's going to make the list. The obelisk is going to be coming out so I can remove the jungle shrines, but I think that i might add something like 1 glacial fortress and 2 drowned catacombs or something around that. I've been play testing it just about everyday and I'm planning on testing it against jund and vampires fairly soon. The mana base has been working extremely well and I haven't had a problem with it so I'm just not sure if rupture spire will make the cut. The haunting echos was really an almost accidental addition but I've found that in my playing that if that hits turn five after counter spells or a mass removal that it gets rid of a ton of threats. I am going to run some essence scatter for sure, but i might keep one or two of the mindbreaks in, they too have proven themselves in play testing, especially against cascade. Jace is an iffy one, I'll play around with it for a little while and see if he stay's...let me know what you think....
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Be_Nike

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:54 pm

I'm glad your manabase is working for you...all I'm saying is that rupture spire may make it even more stable and will make it easier to cast your cruels. You don't need 4, but try a few out for awhile and see how it does. You won't need your two-drop removal spells on turn 2 very often (I can't think of anything that would warrant a turn 2 removal spell right now), so you shouldn't be worrying about that. Check out a few of the Alara block constructed 5CC decks...the manabase is pretty similar and solid (obviously without the fetches and a few duals).

And seriously, try Jwar Jwar out...the dude just gets more insane every time I play with him and he is bonkers against Jund--they have no way to get rid of it and it stops broodmate cold.
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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:12 pm

I really really really want to run Sphinx of the Steel Wind side board against jund, because really if i get him in my hand with eight mana it's win. They don't have a single card right now that can answer it and i'll gain my life from first strike lifelink before i have to take anydamage. The only problem is the eight mana....
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Ryman

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:07 pm

Another card that I think deserves a strong consideration right now is Swerve. It is pretty sick against Jund if they try to Blightning your and/or Pulse, Blast, etc. Just a thought.
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Yoman



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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:30 pm

Since you're not into Rupture Spire, what about Pyroclasm as a nice turn two sweeper vs. mega aggro? It also wouldn't cost you two life like Volcanic and it would give you something productive to do early game, or if necessary drop two of them late game to take out Broodmate.
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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:25 pm

Swerve is definitely a card i'm considering. I think that with the loss of need for green mana, i'll take the jungle shrines for rupture spires and maybe another glacial fortress.
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Th3 Ra1nman

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:40 pm

kurt your more retarted more then i thought first of all: jund will reck you before and post side board, second vampise plays hexmage and mind sledge main board third you need f'in broodmate dragons they are so much beter in 5cc and they are harder to kill over a baneslayer aka "doomblade". no effenece kurt. cryptic command is what made deck amazing along with cruel
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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:58 am

Lord Reiman wrote:
kurt your more retarted more then i thought first of all: jund will reck you before and post side board, second vampise plays hexmage and mind sledge main board third you need f'in broodmate dragons they are so much beter in 5cc and they are harder to kill over a baneslayer aka "doomblade". no effenece kurt. cryptic command is what made deck amazing along with cruel

Wow, that's helpful. I have had absolutely no real problem with jund that any other deck isn't facing and sure as hell not against vamps. Read the forum before you post replies that have already been worked on. The deck isn't even running green anymore so broodmate dragon isn't an option and even if it were i'm still not sure i would place it. 5CC is perfectly viable right now and with the modifications we've been talking about that's more true than ever. If you're going to call me out with comments like that then build a somewhat decent decks and let me destroy you. Last time i checked you were playing child of the night in vamps over hexmage so i'm not really sure where you're getting you're ideas. Cryptic command was a great card in 5CC but that's not what made the deck, that's like saying faeries would have been bad with out cryptic and we now that's not true. Baneslayers gets removed by everything, we already know that, they suck against removal but it's a $50 card for a reason...it's amazing and broodmate has nothing over it.
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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: New Build   Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:10 am

4CC

Permanents 11
2x Baneslayer (Lack of a third)
2x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3x Wall of Denial
2x Jace Beleren
2x Ior Ruin Expedition

Spells 25
4x Esper Charm
2x Celestial Purge
2x Path to Exile
2x Agony Warp
3x Essence Scatter
2x Negate
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Day of Judgment
3x Cruel Ultimatum

Lands 24
4x Arcane Sanctum
4x Crumbling Necropolis
4x Islands
3x Mountains
2x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Marsh Flats
2x Scalding Tarn

Side Board 15
4x Blighning
3x Flashfreeze
2x Path to Exile
2x Earthquake
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Negate
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind

So what I did was took out the green shifting my mana base away from jungle shine, i think that with only four colors i can try to stay away from the rupture spires although they're still an option, i'll see how it runs. I put purges main to prevent ramping the heavy aggro metagame while still having effective removal. I had to put sphinx of the steel wind side board for an auto win against jund. My counter magic has dramatically shifted also because of the aggro metagame and need to slow those decks down. A 5/5 shroud is a tough answer for a lot decks and should be a good addition over the other sphinx. The expeditions go in to keep my draw up after losing a sphinx and a jace, but two jaces are going to stay. I put in the walls to stop aggro too and lost ajani who was just too expensive to cast a lightning helix and sent to the graveyard with a swing from my opponent. Agony warps should be a really cool addition too. So what do you guys think about the changes? Is it better, is it worse, how do i improve it further?


Last edited by Kkrueg on Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BuckyMac

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:14 am

Oh' so your making this an extended 5CC deck.
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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:12 pm

My bad, to used to the old name
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Th3 Ra1nman

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:18 pm

I like this one more i still say broodmate dragons are better then baneslayers but it your choose. and way celestial purge main deck?
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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:03 am

I'd assume Celestial Purge is more of a meta call. If the meta is full of Jund and Vamps, it's fantastic and definitely maindeckable. Kills everything you want it to for good except for Bloodwitch.
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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:46 am

ok i see but what abouts soilders will be in standerd that deck is amazing Dale a guy in are play group playys and it is amazing strong that is way i think it should be in the side
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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:55 am

If soldiers are a problem in the meta in Roch, then I would keep the purges in the side for either terminates or more paths. If I were to go to a bigger tourney(where I think more people will play Jund or Vamps), then I would probably play one or two purges main.

Thinking about it, I really like terminate even though it doesn't deal with thrinax efficiently.
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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:48 pm

I would rather terminate the thrinax even though they get the tokens to avoid ramping jund, a jund deck with a big mana difference over me is really scary because things can get out of control before i might not be able to keep up, but idk where the terminates would fit, should i just not play either path or purge?
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Andrew

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:34 pm

Clint, you cannot call someone retar(d/t)ed if you can't even spell it correctly...perhaps constructive criticism would be more helpful?
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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:58 pm

LOL@Andrew.
Yeah clint, you really have AWFUL grammar and usage, to the point where its difficult to understand some of your posts. ;-)
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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:55 pm

I don't think that soldiers are my main threat in the meta right now, but i would like some advice on my removal suite. As far as single targets what should i be using as far as path, agony warp, terminate, celestial purge, lightning bolt, doom blade, any that i'm missing....as far as mass removal should i be using pyroclasm, infest, volcanic fallout, earthquake, etc?
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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:58 pm

Kkrueg wrote:
as far as mass removal should i be using pyroclasm, infest, volcanic fallout, earthquake, etc?

I think Pyroclasm is the best option for your deck. It can land early against decks that have three creatures out by turn two, and it doesn't deal damage to you, damaging yourself helps your aggro opponent finish you off faster.


Last edited by Inez on Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kkrueg

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PostSubject: Re: Type 2 5CC....can it work??   Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:01 pm

what about thrinaxs, nighthawks, stable stags and the like, they don't really feel to bad about that....i guess the earthquakes i'm playing now still miss the nighthawks....that card is ridiculous...
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